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Saul Alinsky and His Core Concepts
n
MIKE MILLER
C
ontroversy accompanied Saul Alinsky wherever he went, and he thrived on it.
Indeed, he cultivated it. What follows is both my experience of S aul—stories
I possess because I was there, he told me about it, or someone close to him told me
about it—and an introduction to his core concepts.1 This chapter begins with introduction to Alinsky, the person, and how he did his work. I knew him from 1960
until the time of his death, and worked for him from 1966 through the first half
of 1967. The chapter then turns to a discussion of the core concepts that oriented
Alinsky’s work.
Copyright © 2015. Vanderbilt University Press. All rights reserved.
An Idealist and a Child of His Times
Alinsky became a man during the Great Depression of the 1930s, and was swept up
in its social movements. Most importantly, the Congress of Industrial Organizations
(CIO) was successfully organizing unskilled workers in the country’s major
industries.
Opposition to the growth of fascism in Europe was growing. Support for racial
equality and other causes began to simmer. His understanding of how the world
worked, and how to change it, was born of these experiences along with his doctoral
sociological studies at the University of Chicago and his experiences as a researcher
and criminal sociologist with juvenile delinquency and crime.
An important participant in the social change efforts of the time was the organized
political left, particularly the Communist Party. He encountered and worked with
Communists, socialists, capitalists, small “d” democrats, and religionists who didn’t
identify with these categories but thought of justice in theological and moral terms.
And he worked with people who didn’t have a label, but just wanted to do the right
thing. In their different ways, they believed that we all are our brother’s keeper, have
an obligation to work for the common good, or are members of the working class and
have to stand in solidarity with one another.
Saul Alinsky was both a person of ideas and of action. Both were guided by a
passion for justice, so before looking at his core ideas, I’d like to give the reader an
appreciation of who he was.
Msgr. John “Jack” Egan was a leading Catholic apostle of democracy and social
and economic justice who was a close associate of Alinsky’s. At Alinsky’s Chicago
17
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18
PEOPLE POWER
memorial service, Egan said, “As a very young man, Saul Alinsky imposed upon himself the obligation of caring—for the poor, the dispossessed, the disenfranchised, those
discriminated against. . . .”
Egan once asked him, “Why?”
“I can’t stand to see people get pushed around” was the simple answer.
“What stands out in my mind when I think of Saul,” Egan continued, “is his integrity, his fidelity. Throughout all his life and all his work, he believed in people. . . .
He was faithful to that belief in season and out of season.”
Imagining Alinsky facing the Lord, Egan had God saying to Saul, “You saw me
despised and you treated me with dignity. You saw me powerless to secure a job and
decent housing, and you helped me organize with my brothers and sisters to secure my
rights as a human being and as a citizen; you saw me still enslaved, and you lifted my
eyes to freedom and self-determination. You saw me being pushed around, and you
cared constantly.” 2
Those who saw Saul Alinsky as a cynic are simply wrong.
Copyright © 2015. Vanderbilt University Press. All rights reserved.
Back of the Yards and the Pre-World War II Period
In Back of the Yards, the slum neighborhood adjoining the Chicago stockyards,
Alinsky launched his life as a community organizer. Here I want to focus attention on
five people: Bishop Bernard James Sheil, Joe Meegan, Herb March, Marshall Field III,
and John L. Lewis.
In the broader Chicago context, the most important person was Sheil, who became an auxiliary bishop of the Chicago archdiocese in 1928. An outspoken advocate
of social justice and supporter of organized labor, he put his money where his mouth
was. Told by a Catholic banker in Chicago that he would never become an archbishop
if he spoke at a labor rally to be addressed by John L. Lewis, head of the CIO, he
spoke. Sheil served under Archbishop George William Mundelein, himself committed
to the union movement. Mundelein said:
The trouble with us [the Church] in the past has been that we were too often allied
or drawn into an alliance with the wrong side. Selfish employers of labor have
flattered the Church by calling it the great conservative force, and then called upon
it to act as a police force while they paid but a pittance of wage to those who work
for them. I hope that day has gone by. Our place is beside the workingman. They
are our people, they build our churches, our priests come from their sons.3
The Chicago archdiocese was one of the most liberal in the United States.
In the Back of the Yards neighborhood, Joe Meegan was everything that Alinsky
wasn’t: locally rooted (supervisor of recreation at Davis Park); Irish, Catholic, and
well-connected in the church. (Alinsky met Sheil through Meegan’s monsignor
People Power : The Community Organizing Tradition of Saul Alinsky, edited by Aaron Schutz, and Mike Miller, Vanderbilt University Press, 2015.
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Saul Alinsky and His Core Concepts
19
brother). Meegan’s horizon was circumscribed by Back of the Yards—for fifty years he
was executive director of the Back of the Yards Neighborhood Council.4 Alinsky, on
the other hand, didn’t live in Back of the Yards, and he was a nonpracticing Jew who
wanted to work in a neighborhood rife with anti-Semitism. Before connecting with
Meegan, Alinsky had few ties to the Catholic Church.
During this time, there was a union organizing effort in the neighborhood’s huge
slaughterhouses and packinghouses. The key person Alinsky met there was Herb
March, who was also an open member of the Communist Party. Like many radicals
of his day, to become an organizer March had dropped out of college and become a
blue-collar worker. He won his fellow workers’ respect for his courage (he was almost
assassinated during the union’s organizing drive), his intelligence, and his consistent
commitment to them. The United Packinghouse Workers of America (UPWA)—the
union that emerged from the organizing committee and for which March worked
full time in an elected position—was one of the most committed to racial equality
of the industrial unions, all of which were publicly opposed to segregation and
discrimination.
Marshall Field III was an heir to the Marshall Field department store fortune, a
major publisher (including of the Chicago Sun-Times), an investment banker, a racehorse owner, a philanthropist, and a founding member of the board of directors of
Alinsky’s Industrial Areas Foundation (IAF). It was his financial contribution to the
IAF that launched the organization, and it was central to Alinsky’s effort to spread his
work across the country.
John L. Lewis led the 1930s organization of industrial workers in the United
States. Nothing in our nation’s history since has equaled the people power of those
unions. They were part of a social movement that engaged in massive mobilizations of
the disenfranchised; at the same time, they were powerful organizations whose leaders
negotiated with chief executive officers of major corporations, the president of the
United States, and thousands of other politicians. John L. Lewis was one of Alinsky’s
major teachers.
When automobile workers staged an occupation of a major General Motors
(GM) plant, Chevrolet #4 at Flint, Michigan, the liberal governor of the state
threatened to use the National Guard to eject the workers. Lewis confronted him.
In his peroration, which contrasted justice with law and order, he reminded the
governor that both the governor’s father and grandfather were Irish revolutionaries.
Lewis said that he would stand in front of his union men, telling the governor that
“when you order your troops to fire, mine will be the first breast that those bullets
will strike. And as my body falls from that window to the ground, you listen to the
voice of your grandfather as he whispers in your ear, ‘Frank, are you sure you are
doing the right thing?’ ” 5
The order to vacate was not issued. The next day, GM capitulated. The sit-downers
won. In his biography of Lewis, Alinsky wrote, “When the agreement was reached,
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20
PEOPLE POWER
General Motors’ John Thomas Smith said, ‘Well, Mr. Lewis, you beat us, but I’m not
going to forget it. I just want to tell you that one of these days we’ll come back and
give you the kind of whipping that you and your people will never forget.’ ” 6
Alinsky concluded that an agreement is only as good as your power to enforce it.
Democratic People Power
Around 1970, GM began giving the United Auto Workers (UAW) that whipping; it
continues today. Detroit’s recent bankruptcy makes vivid two lessons: first, the conflict
between the haves and the have-nots is a continuing struggle. If you fail to recognize
that, and go to sleep after winning some concessions, you will win battles but lose the
war. Since the pattern of organizational life seems to be that every generation has to
make its own revolution, I hope this book will contribute to a new generation nonviolently doing just that.
The second lesson is more difficult to learn, and even more difficult to implement:
people power is not simply about winning campaigns; it is about changing the relations of p
ower—which means in the case of the present plutocracy that really governs
the United States, ways must be found to break it up, regulate it, or expropriate it. We
must spread the ownership of the corporate institutions it now governs to some combination of consumers, workers, communities, government, and a much wider base
of investors than those who now control things. We need not have a formulaic idea of
what that will look like. But we should be talking about the need for alternatives, and
what they might look like.
Alinsky had a fairly easy-to-grasp set of core ideas. Their simplicity makes them
attractive. They are simple, but not easy to implement.
Copyright © 2015. Vanderbilt University Press. All rights reserved.
Putting the Pieces Together on the Ground:
Alinsky and Meegan
I don’t know the sequence of how Alinsky got Meegan, March, and Sheil to form the
unlikely alliance that led to the Back of the Yards Neighborhood Council.
With Meegan, the conversation would have been something like this (to be clear,
I’m making this up. I was two years old when this happened!):
Alinsky : Joe, you’ve been telling me about the horrible conditions that you’re
seeing here in Back of the Yards. I’ve got an idea to do something about
them. You interested?
Meegan : Of course!
[Alinsky then would have outlined with Meegan the prospect of an organization that
brought together all the organizations, small and large, of the people living in Back of the
People Power : The Community Organizing Tradition of Saul Alinsky, edited by Aaron Schutz, and Mike Miller, Vanderbilt University Press, 2015.
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Saul Alinsky and His Core Concepts
21
Yards—the most important of them being the Catholic parishes of the neighborhood, and
their pastors.]
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Meegan : You can’t do that, Saul, they all hate each other.
Alinsky : I know that, but they all seem to trust you.
Meegan : So what am I going to say to them? They know their people are
hurting. But they’re more consumed by their hatred of one another than by
the suffering of their members. They all have food pantries, clothes closets,
and other handout programs. They think they’re doing enough.
Alinsky : That might all be true, but they also know that they’re losing their
people to the union, which they think is a Communist outfit. They preach
against it every Sunday, and on Monday another parishioner joins the union.
We can give them a vehicle in which the church has its own voice to address
these issues.
Meegan : How are we going to get these conservatives to become
liberals?
Alinsky : They’re not. This is where your brother comes in. Let’s meet with
him, and get him to introduce me to Bishop Sheil. With Sheil on our side,
we’ll get the cardinal. With the two of them behind us, the pastors can’t
openly oppose us. And once we get inside the parishes, we can build up support that will push the pastors to come on board—or have to deal with a lot
of anger from their own people.
Oh, and by the way, we need to ask the PWOC [Packinghouse Workers
Organizing Committee] to be part of this as well.
Meegan : What are you saying, Saul? They’ve got an open Commie as their key
guy here!
Alinsky : I know. But Sheil admires John L. Lewis and the CIO. I know Lewis
from volunteering with the coal miners’ union [which Lewis headed]; I’ve
interviewed him on several occasions. If the PWOC is good enough for
Lewis, it will be good enough for Sheil.
Here’s another thing: if the Catholic Church in Back of the Yards doesn’t
get on board to do something about poverty here, the church is going to end
up losing its people to the Communists. And you can’t do anything serious
about poverty if you limit yourself to neighborhood organizing. Unionizing
the slaughterhouses where most of their people work is a key piece in this
struggle.
By the way, I’ve been talking with Herb March, the Communist organizer
over there at PWOC. Here’s what he said to me: “The Catholics aren’t going
to support us. They’re hand-and-glove in bed with the meatpackers. Hell,
Saul, these fat cats are in their Gold Coast parishes, give major bucks to their
charities, are trustees at their universities—you name it.” 7
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PEOPLE POWER
22
Meegan : He said that? We’ll see about that. This archdiocese takes the social
encyclicals seriously.8 Yeah, Saul, let’s see my brother and see if we can pull
this thing off.
Putting the Pieces Together: Alinsky and March
While this conversation was taking place (more elaborately than I’ve imagined it),
Alinsky would also have been talking with March. I met Herb March and his wife in
the late 1980s after he had retired as a union organizer and leader. While he had left
the Communist Party, he had not abandoned any of his beliefs in unions, democracy,
or the necessity for basic change in the United States for social and economic justice. I
also corresponded with his son in the course of putting this book together. Both father
and son described a close and warm relationship between March and Alinsky.
Another imagined conversation:
Copyright © 2015. Vanderbilt University Press. All rights reserved.
Alinsky : Herb, you’ve been telling me about the impasse in the battle with
the meatpackers, and how worried you are that the strike might fail. Do you
think the possibilities for victory would be increased if you could have support from the Catholic parishes in Back of the Yards?
March : Does two plus two equal four? Of course it would, Saul. But you
and I know that these old reactionary pastors aren’t going to do a damn thing
to support the union. Either they come from the old country themselves,
or their parents do, and they’re all tied into the anti-Communism of the
churches of Eastern Europe.9
Plus, I’m tired of their bullshit. I’m a democrat—small “d” version—and
I respect the people who work in the industry. They know that. I’ve earned
their trust. I don’t have to listen to this anti-Communist crap.
I know for a fact that they preach against the union in their homilies; our
members complain about it. And they argue with their wives about it. I’m
their favorite target! You’re not going to get them to be in the same room with
me, Saul.10
Alinsky : Yeah, I know all that. But let’s say I could get the Catholics to agree
to meet with you and your organizing committee. If I can do that, I want to
know that you and your committee will be on your best behavior. No airing
of history; no complaints about their homilies. Will you agree to that?
March : Nothing ventured, nothing gained. Why not? Sure, Saul, go ahead.
You’re a clever guy, Saul, but I don’t think you can pull this off.11
One week later:
Alinsky : Well, Herb, they want to meet. And you know what I discovered?
Some of them admire you. They think you’re a decent guy.
People Power : The Community Organizing Tradition of Saul Alinsky, edited by Aaron Schutz, and Mike Miller, Vanderbilt University Press, 2015.
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Saul Alinsky and His Core Concepts
23
(In Reveille for Radicals, Alinsky proudly admits to making up small lies in the service of big justice. In his workshops, he frequently noted that the Declaration of
Independence didn’t list all the things King George had done for the colonies. “You
know,” and here I paraphrase, “there’s also lying by omission. If the writers of the
Declaration had listed all the things the British had done for the colonists, do you
think they would have laid down their plows, left their farms, kissed their wives or
girlfriends good-bye, and enlisted in Washington’s army?”)12
With both Meegan and March, Alinsky used a combination of flattery and persuasion, appealing to personal and organizational self-interest, deeply held values, and
the confidence in him he had cultivated. For Bishop Sheil, Alinsky provided a way for
the bishop and cardinal to put their commitment to the church’s social and economic
justice teachings “on the ground” and to develop a vehicle for progressive social action
in Back of the Yards in which they were equals with the secular left.
The idea Alinsky projected of the churches, the union, and everybody else
working together for the common good in a new organization was appealing because the projected neighborhood council was separate from the union but included
it. If the church was merely supporting the union, it would be a Johnny-come-lately
to an organization already led by left-wingers, including an open member of the
Communist Party.
With these three people, and his preexisting relationship with the CIO’s John
L. Lewis, Alinsky accomplished the central objectives at the beginning of one of his
organizing projects—establishing legitimacy in the community that is targeted for
organizing, and getting a broad base of initial support within that community for the
idea of a mass organization.
The Back of the Yards Neighborhood Council (BYNC) did support the strike, and
its support was important to the winning of union recognition and a contract with
the employers. The BYNC also won relief jobs, free school meals for children, health
care, and much more. Its breadth of support forced the Chicago political machine to
negotiate with it.
It was after the nationally renowned success of the BYNC that Alinsky met
Marshall Field III, a multimillionaire.13 Field had a liberal political bent. His newspapers’ editorial policies reflected this. Field’s funding allowed Alinsky to spread the
work he had started in Back of the Yards to other parts of the country. Field provided
a core budget for the IAF so Alinsky could travel and agitate for the formation of
local projects elsewhere—in these early years for the most part in the Midwest—particularly where there was a combination of a favorable Catholic diocese and a local or
organizing presence of the packinghouse workers union.
Fast Forward to the 1960s
By the 1960s, Alinsky was deeply involved with mainline Protestant denominations as
well as with Catholic dioceses across the country. He lectured in public forums and at
People Power : The Community Organizing Tradition of Saul Alinsky, edited by Aaron Schutz, and Mike Miller, Vanderbilt University Press, 2015.
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24
PEOPLE POWER
major colleges and seminaries, and led ten-day community organizing workshops for
clergy and lay leaders. The workshops were typically organized by some combination
of inner-city clergy leaders and denominational staff and executives responsible for
urban work and/or social and economic justice ministry. Typically, they had at least
the tacit approval of their denomination’s equivalent of a Catholic bishop (though
none had quite as much authority). By the mid-1960s, almost all the major American
mainline Protestant denominations had made commitments to legitimize and fund
Alinsky’s approach to community organizing.
The next section of this book features The Woodlawn Organization (TWO), the
first African American organization that Alinsky put together. Here I turn to the
second—FIGHT in Rochester.
Copyright © 2015. Vanderbilt University Press. All rights reserved.
Rochester, New York
In Rochester, New York, Rev. Herbert D. White served as the director of the Board of
Urban Ministry for eight Protestant denominations that were members of the Council
of Churches. He got their agreement to invite Alinsky to Rochester in the wake of
1964 riots in the black community. These were mostly white denominations, however,
even though most of them had some presence in the black community.
The invitation initially didn’t sit well with the historically black churches. One of
their key pastors was Minister Franklin Florence, of the Church of Christ. Florence,
an associate of Malcolm X, a militant, and in important respects a black nationalist,
was initially suspicious of Alinsky.
Rochester’s major news media met Alinsky at the airport upon his arrival. Asked
what he was going to do there, he replied that he didn’t know if the IAF was coming
to Rochester (this was his first time in town). He then characterized Rochester as
“Smugtown, USA”; Eastman Kodak was the city’s dominant corporation and largest
employer, and Alinsky described the relationship of Kodak and Rochester as similar to
the plantation relationships of slaveowners and blacks in the Deep South. The media
were outraged. Alinsky was bombarded with attacks. He responded with ridicule, one
of his favorite devices, and said, “As far as I know the only thing Kodak has done on
the race issue in America is to introduce color film.” 14
Why did Alinsky do this? Did he simply enjoy insulting the establishment? No
doubt! But there was more to it than that. Within days, Florence was having second
thoughts: “If the white power structure hates this guy so much, maybe he has something to offer us.” He checked Alinsky out with Malcolm X, who told him, “Alinsky
is the best organizer in the United States.” 15 Why was a black nationalist seeming to
endorse Alinsky, an avowed integrationist? Because in Chicago’s Woodlawn neighborhood, Alinsky had put together a black power organization before the term “black
power” was a slogan. Indeed, TWO’s slogan was “self-determination through community power.”
People Power : The Community Organizing Tradition of Saul Alinsky, edited by Aaron Schutz, and Mike Miller, Vanderbilt University Press, 2015.
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Saul Alinsky and His Core Concepts
25
Alinsky’s attack on Rochester’s white power structure combined agitation with
provocation. As he goaded the enemy, the principle at work was “my enemy’s enemy
may be my friend.” Florence proceeded on that basis, deciding to welcome Alinsky’s
organization.
That wasn’t all. White and Alinsky cultivated Catholic support as well. White introduced Alinsky to Fr. P. David Finks. Already committed to civil rights, Finks initially didn’t know if he supported Alinsky. He had been dismissed as chaplain of the
Motherhouse of the Rochester Sisters of Mercy because of his liberal theology, and
assigned to an inner-city parish. The dismissal and reassignment “had a profound
effect on him and his future.” 16 Coincidence and accident played a role: Fulton J.
Sheen became Rochester’s bishop and appointed Finks vicar of urban ministry—a
position from which he worked closely with White, Alinsky, and FIGHT. White
developed a relationship of trust with Finks, which is what opened the door to the
meeting with Alinsky.
Finks and White established the ecumenical Joint Office of Urban Ministry, which
was designed to “help urban and suburban communities organize around economic
and political issues which affected them.” 17 Finks subsequently played a national role
in winning Catholic support for Alinsky, and later wrote a biography of Alinsky. In
a letter to the Ford Foundation, Finks stated, “He had a crucial effect on my life and
way of doing things.” 18
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Kansas City, Missouri
Another example of what Alinsky called “organizational jiujitsu” comes from my own
experience. The Kansas City organizing project had similar origins to Rochester’s.
Presbyterian minister Ken Waterman and a key Catholic diocesan priest staff member
(whose name I no longer remember) were the initial supporters of an IAF organizing
project. A white pastor of an inner-city, predominantly black church, Rev. Waterman
already had relationships with many black ministers and was able to enlist them in the
effort. But an important black clergyman was a holdout: Rev. John W. Williams was
pastor of the large St. Stephen’s (American) Baptist Church, highly respected in both
the black and white communities of Kansas City, and a leader in the National and
World Councils of Churches. Without Williams’s participation, a black community
organizing effort would not be as strong.
A group of black and white inner-city pastors worked for months to develop a broadbased invitation, but Alinsky told them, “I’m not coming to Kansas City unless Rev.
Williams is part of the invitation.” Deeply disappointed, they asked him, “What can
we do?” Alinsky conspired with them; the outcome was a delegation of black clergymen
visiting Williams and asking him to have an individual meeting with Alinsky.
What Alinsky realized was that Williams’s stature in the black community had
not been sufficiently recognized in the original invitation process; in a word, he had
People Power : The Community Organizing Tradition of Saul Alinsky, edited by Aaron Schutz, and Mike Miller, Vanderbilt University Press, 2015.
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26
PEOPLE POWER
been bypassed—if not literally, then substantively. Now Williams was being offered a
private meeting with Alinsky at which the two of them would get to know each other.
Alinsky would respond to questions Williams might have, and, most importantly,
there would be implicit acknowledgment of Williams’s importance in Kansas City’s
African American community. As a result of that meeting, a deal was struck: Williams
endorsed the project, and one of his assistant pastors, Rev. Solon Fox, was nominated
by the preconvention nominating committee to be the new organization’s t reasurer—a
sign of the trust the organization had in Williams and St. Stephens. I learned of the
deal when I was briefed on Kansas City before going to work there to direct what by
then was the Council for United Action (CUA).
There was another side to the Williams lesson. Faced with a broad-based delegation
of fellow black clergy, he would have been hard-pressed to say no. Holding an internationally known clergyman accountable to the larger black community was an application of the general democratic principles that were central to Alinsky’s thinking. 19 In
historically African American congregations, especially Baptist ones, the pastor is a star
figure. But he is also vulnerable to dismissal if he angers the congregation, especially
key leaders. As a result, black pastors learn how to build protections around themselves while seeking roles that will enhance their reputation with their congregants.
It was important to be aware of this balancing act when seeking to hold these leaders
more accountable to their own constituencies.
While I was in Kansas City, we put together a jobs campaign similar to Rev.
Jesse Jackson’s Operation PUSH (People United to Serve Humanity) in Chicago.
There were no lay people on the committee, which met at 10:00 a.m. on a weekday
at St. Stephen’s Church—a time when many potential lay members would be at
work. There was one exception. A black caucus at the General Motors Fisher Body
assembly plant was a member of CUA, and a number of its members worked the
swing shift, which would have made it possible for them to come to a morning
meeting. I tried to get them to simply show up at one of the meetings, knowing that
the clergy wouldn’t have asked them to leave, and they probably would soon have
found themselves welcome. My IAF supervisor and mentor, Ed Chambers, pushed
me to make it happen, but I was unable to get the black caucus members to do it,
despite the fact that one of the major reasons for the existence of their own organization was to create greater accountability within the UAW and end discriminatory
practices within it. However, this is an example of the IAF’s efforts to go beyond
simply organizing existing leaders.
Another key lesson I learned in Kansas City: the black churches, especially the historically black denominations, were deeply suspicious of the Catholics. They viewed
Catholic schools and their recruitment of black inner-city students as a Trojan horse
opening the door for Catholic churches to “raid” the black congregations’ member
families. But by the time I got there, the associate pastor of a Catholic inner-city
parish was the chairman of CUA’s all-important Jobs and Employment Committee.
The experience of working together had diminished black mistrust of the Catholics.
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Saul Alinsky and His Core Concepts
27
Core Concepts
I now turn to the central ideas that guided what Alinsky did. I call him a radical
democrat. At times he called himself a radical, and he sometimes used the term
“populist.” He also had a streak of conservatism in his appreciation for local traditions and values.
Copyright © 2015. Vanderbilt University Press. All rights reserved.
Values
Alinsky’s work was rooted in two intellectual/theoretical/moral sources. First, the
small “d” democratic tradition: this philosophy, which goes back to Jeffersonian
and Athenian democracy, postulated the righteousness and wisdom of “the people”
governing themselves, and their capacity—given the right conditions—to do so.20
The second source was the moral, social, economic justice teachings of Judaism and
Christianity. As other immigrant groups with different religious beliefs became part
of these community organizations, parallel teachings from Muslims and Buddhists
became part of the organizing values framework.
Alinsky thought that given the opportunity, most people would do the wise and
moral thing most of the time. They would do the mor
